A new approach to lancing

[Seawied]

Lancers need some changes.

As people are starting to notice (and with a fair amount of satisfactions, I can say "I told you so!") cavalry has become more common after the last major patch. While the causes of this are debatable, I think its past due that we re-examine the lance.


There are two ways to use the lance: poking, and couching. Out of the two, poking is much stronger than couching.

Strengths of Poke-lancing

• ~+50 weapon reach
• Extremely high damage
• Fast recovery time
• The ability to block without a shield

Weaknesses of Poke-Lancing

• Requires timing
• Can be easily manually blocked
• Can be consistently chambered by a good player
• Cannot be used by all lances

Strengths of Couch Lancing

• Does not require power strike
• Very high damage
• Fairly easy to time
• Cannot be manual-blocked
• Less expensive equipment

Weaknesses of Couch Lancing

• Reduced weapon length
• Leaves the horse vulnerable to short spears
• Very long recharge time
• Requires speeds not always obtainable by some horses
• More predictable
• Requires longer stretches of open, level field

As you can clearly see, out of the two types of combat, poke-lancing is clearly superior in-game. This presents a number of problems.

First off, it should be noted that poke-lancing is a historically more-primitive than couched lances.  Physics-wise, it makes little sense that poke-lancing deals nearly as much, if not just as much damage as a couched lance. Because the arm is extended, less force is transferred from the horse and rider, to the single point of the lance. A couched lance transfers significantly more force and, to quote historian Mike Loads, "horse, man, spear: a single projectile."

However, I am of the philosophy that balancing a game around history or reality is not always a good policy, but in this case, it would be a smart thing to do. Here is my reasoning.

As I noted earlier, a couched lance has significantly more drawbacks than lance-poking. Because of this, a skilled player has no reason to couch a lance over thrusting with it. Thrusting is safer, its just as deadly, is not difficult to do. Couching a lance, on the other-hand, is a high risk, high reward tactic. It is more balanced than poke-lancing.


Here are my suggestions

• Disable manual blocking on all lances
• Lower the damage value on all thrustable lances across the board significantly (20-22p should be more than enough)
• Reduce the cool-down period for couch-lancing by about half
• Lower the required speed for couch-lancing. Since damage is tied to speed, this would balance itself.
• Add a chance to drop a thrusted lance on a high damage hit

Implementing these changes would encourage other forms of mounted combat other than the use of lances.

A few disclaimers:
Yes, I do have a cavalry character, but this is by no means my only character. I have made these suggestions from my experiences of playing on both sides of the horse.
Yes, I do have a long history of encouraging cavalry nerfs.
Yes, I will jump down your throat if you say something stupid because you did not read the entire post.


That said, what are your thoughts?

[EponiCo]

If you look at it more exactly it is also the style of poking that has changed a lot. In horse vs. horse combat it's not about "jousting" i.e. frontal charges against each other, but getting behind or to the side of the enemy more like airplane dogfights.
Against infantry you mostly see high speed passes, though you also see people oneshotted by lance thrusts from near stationary horse and a single high speed pass is a kill in 90% of the cases.
The other factors in this are ofc the overmaneuverable horses with 25% more maneuver than every other horse.
I'd too think lowering lance damage would be worth a try, it doesn't have to be much, but they are currently more damaging than spears when heirloomed, while in fact they should be only usuable with the mass of the horse charge behind them.
If the effect is that only 70% die from high speed poke ... well, it's not that cavalry really struggles these days, like archers and others they'd just have to contend themselves with only injuring people every once in a while.

[BD_Guard_Bane]

Disable manual blocking on all lances

About this specifically, it might be interesting. It'd mean lancers would need a shield for blocking while on horseback, and that'd reduce their choice of other weapons because of the slot system.
It would change cav vs cav combat a lot - introduce a lot more risk for lancers.

[Tzar]

Here are my suggestions

• Remove the cool-down period for couch-lancing
• Lower the required speed for couch-lancing. Since damage is tied to speed, this would balance itself.

This suggestion is laughable thx for the quick laugh tho 

[MaHuD]

It sounds great, but I wouldn't want the lance to bounce of someone either or decrease the power of horsemen too much.

Also; the reason that cavalry is so strong is because it has a different, ever increasing scaling power influenced by numbers.

Explenation

A single cav is no match for any equally skilled, equally lvled player with any class.
Let's say the cav has a potential power of 0.5
and the infantry of 1.0
= Infantry wins

Two cavalry players can use more teamwork than two infantry players
But still the infantry should be able to deal with it if they have a weapon of atleast some lenght

Single Cav power: 0.7
Total Cav power: 1.4

Single Infantry power: 1.1 (One of the infantry can block, while the other stabs -> Increases combat effectiveness but note that it doesn't increase teamplay as much as cav does)
Infantry power: 2.2
= Inf wins

Four cavalry against four infantry should mean death for the infantry, unless they are all equiped against horses (spears, long 2h etc.)
Single Cav power: 2.0 (Double that of a single inf - Note that cav has a great mobility, and can be in comparision to infantry anywhere it wants at any time, it can also feint charge, backstab, run away at any time etc.)
Total Cav power: 8.0

Single Infantry Power: 1.4 (Can make a round formation, but would require poking/stabbing weapons which only a limited number of players have)
Total Infantry power: 5.6

= Cav wins

And so forth...

The numbers are made up, but it should give you an idea.

If you don't believe me, try it....  Play 1 vs 1 play 4 vs 4, 8 vs 8
 you will notice that the more players involved, the easier it will be for the cav.

Or join an organised big battle at native or any other mod and play with 60 cav vs 60 inf, the cav is going to win.

And yes it's still valid to test that in other mods, because it's not so much about the personal stats of the horseman,
 it's about the great potential in teamwork and formations, which infantry can't use up to the same level.

(click to show/hide)

Obviously if a single cav's stats are too strong, the infantry is fucked anyway
or
if a horse dies by 1 arrow the cav is fucked but those are extremes.

The Problem of nerfing

Anyway, the point which I am trying to make is that if you decrease the capability of horseman less players will play cav, this means that not only does the cavalry individually play worse, it also recieves another hit on combat effectiveness due to a decrease in numbers.

Players will then shout that cav is underpowered, and it will get
 buffed = more players = superb strenght (overpowered) = nerf = less players = ultra nerf =
 etc. etc.


Conclusion

What I propose is that we look at a way to counter the teamplay of the cavalry rather than the individual stats.

Possible solutions
What might be an idea is to create a medium damage, low speed , medium range 1 slot, spear.
This way more players will be able to take something against/anti cavalry, but because of it's low speed it would/should be useless against anything but not against cavalry.

Besides that, Plazek suggested to lower the viewing (and thus stabbing) arc. This is actually a great idea, since it makes backstabbing in a group harder to pull off and probably cause the cav to bump against eachother more often.

[MouthnHoof]

It sounds great, but I wouldn't want the lance to bounce of someone either or decrease the power of horsemen too much.

Also; the reason that cavalry is so strong is because it has a different, ever increasing scaling power influenced by numbers.
...
bla
...

WTF ?!

[Digglez]

I would love to playtest the suggested changes to see how they pan out.  I think in the long run it would prove benifical.
The only maps I EVER even consider using are the perfectly flat maps where I can get a courser up to mach1 and couch someone that doesnt see it coming, otherwise its suicide

[Kafein]

100% agreed with Seawied. Given your long history of cav nerf posts, your suggestions really are well-tought and backed up this time.

Maybe the most important nerf to lancing should be reducing the attack angle first IMO.

[Dezilagel]

(click to show/hide)

It sounds great, but I wouldn't want the lance to bounce of someone either or decrease the power of horsemen too much.

Also; the reason that cavalry is so strong is because it has a different, ever increasing scaling power influenced by numbers.

Explenation

A single cav is no match for any equally skilled, equally lvled player with any class.
Let's say the cav has a potential power of 0.5
and the infantry of 1.0
= Infantry wins

Two cavalry players can use more teamwork than two infantry players
But still the infantry should be able to deal with it if they have a weapon of atleast some lenght

Single Cav power: 0.7
Total Cav power: 1.4

Single Infantry power: 1.1 (One of the infantry can block, while the other stabs -> Increases combat effectiveness but note that it doesn't increase teamplay as much as cav does)
Infantry power: 2.2
= Inf wins

Four cavalry against four infantry should mean death for the infantry, unless they are all equiped against horses (spears, long 2h etc.)
Single Cav power: 2.0 (Double that of a single inf - Note that cav has a great mobility, and can be in comparision to infantry anywhere it wants at any time, it can also feint charge, backstab, run away at any time etc.)
Total Cav power: 8.0

Single Infantry Power: 1.4 (Can make a round formation, but would require poking/stabbing weapons which only a limited number of players have)
Total Infantry power: 5.6

= Cav wins

And so forth...

The numbers are made up, but it should give you an idea.

If you don't believe me, try it....  Play 1 vs 1 play 4 vs 4, 8 vs 8
 you will notice that the more players involved, the easier it will be for the cav.

Or join an organised big battle at native or any other mod and play with 60 cav vs 60 inf, the cav is going to win.

And yes it's still valid to test that in other mods, because it's not so much about the personal stats of the horseman,
 it's about the great potential in teamwork and formations, which infantry can't use up to the same level.

(click to show/hide)

Obviously if a single cav's stats are too strong, the infantry is fucked anyway
or
if a horse dies by 1 arrow the cav is fucked but those are extremes.

The Problem of nerfing

Anyway, the point which I am trying to make is that if you decrease the capability of horseman less players will play cav, this means that not only does the cavalry individually play worse, it also recieves another hit on combat effectiveness due to a decrease in numbers.

Players will then shout that cav is underpowered, and it will get
 buffed = more players = superb strenght (overpowered) = nerf = less players = ultra nerf =
 etc. etc.


Conclusion

What I propose is that we look at a way to counter the teamplay of the cavalry rather than the individual stats.

Possible solutions
What might be an idea is to create a medium damage, low speed , medium range 1 slot, spear.
This way more players will be able to take something against/anti cavalry, but because of it's low speed it would/should be useless against anything but not against cavalry.

Besides that, Plazek suggested to lower the viewing (and thus stabbing) arc. This is actually a great idea, since it makes backstabbing in a group harder to pull off and probably cause the cav to bump against eachother more often.

...?

Have you ever been up against a lancer 1v1?

[Glyph]

first of all this game is called mount and lade, not mount and nerf the lance so hard that eveyone will go HA and be a my old friend like hell so that will be nerfed too and this game will suck.
but i do agree that couching should be buffed.

[EponiCo]

MaHuD you have some good points.
I disagree on the 1vs1 potential though, ofc a footman against a rider going for the attack will always get the hit in first against the rider and the horse (which can't block even if the rider manages to make that instant switch) with the right tool, otoh a rider playing it save (feigned attack) will never be hit by a footman. Just a stalemate.
It's why it always takes ages to finish off those last surviving horsemen, because like archers on a roof they are camping an unreachable spot (the saddle).
Apart from a few things cav can do that infantry can't (and is balanced by other weaknesses), their high speed is indeed king for teamwork.
Where a footman can usually a reach only 3 or 4 of engagements in a given time where he can endanger the enemy a rider can reach say 12.
You can use it to backstab people who are unaware, no real teamwork mind you, but a kill is a kill. And this really scales with numbers, with 20 2h on a map you still only have to keep track of 5 of them at a time, with 20 riders you have to keep track of nearly all of them.
But you can also use this speed to gang on enemies or help allies who are ganged, where a footman needs to waste a lot of time running and risks to be ganged himself if his allies die too fast. Since people tend to die in battles there's a lot of 3vs2 or 2vs4 situations where you can just show up and tip the scales. But that's just for the open field, most maps include terrain that is horrible for cav, hills that completely stop the horse, tight spaces where you can hardly get in and often the tactic is then just stay in those areas. I don't mind urban maps every once in a while, but some of the village maps have a really big disadvantage for the cav in one team while the team that spawns in the open is still very vulnerable to enemy cav.

edit: Still I dislike the idea of the 1 slot spear. If you pick a 1 slot shield and a war spear or awlpike you should have no problem of defending vs. cav at all (unless they catch you while you are in a duel, but then even a sheated pike wont help you). If you take a huscarl or steel shield, well, deal with it. Can't have nigh invulnerability against everyone.

[MaHuD]

(click to show/hide)

...?

Have you ever been up against a lancer 1v1?

Yes. Also against 3 if you don't mind.

@ Eponico,

Aye, the 1 slot spear may not sound that great.
And like you said there is a lot of maps which don't give suffecient cover, but if there would be more cover the archers would be more stronger as wel.

[Kafein]

Usually, completly open maps aren't so great for cav (they are good in comparison of most maps though). The best maps for cav feature something flat plains don't have : things to hide behind and remain unseen. On this matter, archers and cavarly are exact opposites : Cav love to move without being seen, and archers love seeing without being reachable. That's why the worse possible thing for horses aren't buildings (to an extent, of course), it's hills that slow down the horses, barriers, little walls and those sorts of things that don't let them pass but still let ranged see them and shoot at them.

I'm all for more open, battlefield-looking maps and less of this urban trash we got in every game. Plains force teamwork, increase the use of pikes, shieldwalls, formations... All those things that urban maps fail to encourage.

[KaMiKaZe_JoE]

I agree with OP's general idea: that lancing is a bit over powered at the moment. The heavy lance allows me to outreach almost any opponent, while simultaneously delivering a massive amount of damage. It's lack of speed is no drawback, for I control when and where my attack happens; I do not have to base my actions off the actions of my target and compensate appropriatly. My horse is fast, maneuverable, and quiet, thus I appear out of nowhere and deliver one-shot kills to unwary people.

The issue here is the nature of cavalry in this game, as I have said repeatedly. They're ninjas. They die easily, lacking armor and much HP, and thus compensate for thish by being very very fast. In the case of one hand/2 hand cavalrymen, this doesn't overpower them so much, for they REALLY have to close with their target--like, be on top of them. The longer a cavalryman's lance, however, the greater the distance between himself and his target, and the less chance his target has of realizing he's actually a target.

Even if he does know he's a target, defending himself may be a challenge, for the Heavy Lance is VERY LONG.

I STRONGLY SUPPORT the disabling of manual blocking on all lances, and a damage decrease.

[Cheap_Shot]

I think what would solve everything is if you could accidentally lance your own horse. 

I normally like the challenge of fighting cav, and when I get killed, oh well. Everything kills you in one hit these days, so horses speed bonus doesn't seem particularly special. The only times I've felt there was a problem is when the lancer has their lance couched on the right side, and jump over to the left, and they somehow thrust the lance through the neck and head of their horse to run me through. Being able to lance out your horses brain by accident if you aren't careful I think would fix everything right up.