Suggestions to re-balance throwing.

[AlbaTiger]

Yeah sounds a lot like the build I just finished with, cept I had 60 wpf in poles cause it was a pre-patch character who I never expected to have to fight with axes.
 

I didn't even use the axes that much till all the other weapons got messed with but there is something incredibly satisfying about putting an axe into someones head, especially if you are on TS with people who can cover you while you are close to the fight.

6-8 axes is usually enough if you pick the right targets, light/medium armour. Or hang back a bit and wait for your teammates to wound your chosen target first.

A similar tactic does work for the javelin based throwing weapons, at least to get a couple of kills, but it is very sad when you pepper a horse with them and it just rides away with all your ammo stuck in its arse.
 

[Cheap_Shot]

(buff) 1. Reduce wpf requirement. Had the opposite of intended effect, eliminating pure throwers and leaving only hybrids as viable. (MOST IMPORTANT)
(nerf) 2. Increase powerthrow requirement by around 1-2 depending, for all weapons starting at axes. Would make the better throwing weapons more expensive to work into hybrid builds.
(buff) 3. Make wpf (+ maybe Powerthrow) have more of an effect on accuracy.
(nerf) 4. Reduce accuracy a lot when shield is out. Fair trade for protection.
(buff) 5. Have heirlooming increase stack size slightly again. Reward for those dedicated enough to throwing to actually heirloom throwing weapons.
(buff) 6. Increase damage overall. After testing out a variety of weapons, the damage is terrible. Crossbows do more damage now. With 6 PT and 120 wpf I put 4 spears into someone and they didn't die. They weren't even in plate.
(buff) 7. Increase stack size. Doesn't need to be by much. (Currently a bit ridiculous)
(nerf?) 8. Leave the slots as is. (optional) If the other nerfs I've suggested are implemented then this might not be needed anymore but I never disagreed with it. It puts an end to the chuck-a-thon.

(Neither) 9. Give us some way of telling how much armor will effect our wpf. Currently it's impossible for a powerthrow 10 player to wear any armor with the high wpf requirement. Other then that, it's just a bunch of guessing. "Will I waste my money buying this set of armor? Will I get a big red error message if I try to put on this other set of armor?" We're in the dark here.

There. I have actually listed each step as a buff or a nerf so that you understand that I am not looking to make my playstyle OP again. I am looking to have it reintroduced to the game in a balanced and fair way. This class has already undergone serious nerfs, to the point where it has become impossible to play a dedicated thrower, leaving only hybrids anywhere close to effective. Even with that in mind, I have still listed almost as many nerfs as I have buffs. I hope someone in the position of making changes to the games balance will take me seriously.

I have not been here whining, or screaming. I have been taking this calmly and seriously, and I hope everyone else will as well.

[22nd_King_Plazek]

Your suggestions suck.
What of JavCav?

I need power strike so I can actually hit people.
I need weapon master so I can actually throw and have viable melee.
I need riding so I can actually ride.
I need horse archery so I can actually have some semblance of accuracy (which also by itself forces an agi spec build, limiting my maximum PT)

The best throwing weapon I can use is already only the javelins. The maximum I can take my power throw up to with my build is 5 and I have only three horse archery. Without it trying to throw on horse back is ridiculous. With your suggestions even when I finally reach level 35 and I would have been perhaps able to take a better throwing weapon I will finally be able to take javelins.

Why should we throwers need to have 5 in PT to be able to take a mid range 33 damage weapon with such a low potential damage output compared to even the most basic of x/bows?


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At the same time you also say to make the lower tier throwing weapons even worse?! Some dedicated throwers actually have to be a hybrid class to be able to throw in the style they want. You also imply like a dedicated thrower must heirloom his throwing equipment to be a real thrower and get acceptable ammo. Well that is bullshit cause I don't play into this whole retirement waste your life on the same grind again and again crap. It needs to be viable by itself without optional game mechanics like retirement.


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Anyone with suggestions worth hearing would surely have addressed the issues regarding the disparity of balance between the throwing axes and every other throwing weapon in the game right now.

[Cheap_Shot]

Don't get all touchy on me here. I'm just looking for compromises. As it stands, you can't even get close to being a horse thrower, and I have a feeling whatever "re-balancing" actually happens will be less then ideal. My main lobby, the most important, is getting the wpf need lowered. With a lowered wpf need, you wouldn't require as much weapon master, and it would free up a lot of wasted skill points for you to spend on horse related skills. I don't pretend to know what your build looks like, but I can only assume that it is probably the most expensive build there is. Throwing requires a huge investment, so doing it on horseback seems impossible. If you have any suggestions to add, please do and I can modify mine if possible and hopefully we can put you back on a horse again. I wouldn't get too hopeful, though since I doubt even I will ever get to be a pure thrower again, and I'm on foot.

Post your build + horse and weapon of choice pre-break, so I can educate myself. You may actually find that the changes I'm suggesting would make it a lot more plausible, even if the powerthrow needed for javs is increased by 1.

Edit: I made a few edits adding notes I shouldn't have left out. That will have to do in the mean time.

[22nd_King_Plazek]

@31

(click to show/hide)

15str
21agi

3 power throw (as it was enough to get the first viable throwing weapon, and could be raised up to a maximum of 5 at high level)
3 horse archery (maximum for my AGI, I think!)
5 riding (at least 4 to have a non-paper horse so I can last long enough to throw a few javs at the horse archer, more to be able to go faster)
5 power strike (one above minimum for any build IMO)
7 weapon master (need the WPF for 2h + throwing, as throwing is inaccurate whatever WPF, especially when on a horse, the bulk is in 2h)
7 athletics (so I can be an annoying bitch when my horse gets killed)

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Pilgrim Robe
Desert Turban
Longsword/Langes Messer/Spiked Mace
6/9/9 Javelins

To roughly break even. This is a sustainable build, another reason why I never pursued better throwing weapons nd the associated PT. They are too damned expensive!
On occasion I would take heavier amour or a cataphract horse. I prefer the style of the above build though it is more skirmishy

Of course I could drop some points somewhere to add it to the power throw but to get javelins, my desired weapon, there was no need to.
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That is pretty much it I think. It is primarily an anti light cavalry build. With a little luck I would be able to take out 2/3 enemy light horses with the javelins or maybe one or two heavier horses. I would rarely be able to kill the rider but sometimes I would. Then having spent all ammo trying to lure light cavalry to their deaths I would go and support the infantry in the melee.

If there were massive blobs of enemy footmen all close together then taking a shot would also be viable.

Also the throwers movement speed gives no damage bonus to ranged weapons, so perhaps the largest benefit to cavalry, the speed bonus. Is irrelevant.

The only other person I know with a similar build is bane, he is a horse thrower and also a 2h user. But  have no idea what his specs are I suppose they may be somewhat similar.

[Cheap_Shot]

Ok, thanks for posting that. It helped me understand where you were coming from. I have some questions however. What do you need horse archery for? I wasn't aware that it gave any bonus to throwing accuracy, certainly not just 3 levels, but I haven't played a horse archer. Unless it makes the hugest difference I would think you're wasting points there. nevermind, apparently it does effect throwing so keep that. The biggest waste of points id say is easily your 7 athletics. If you can manage to stay on your horse, you'll never even use it, and from what I understand, the increase of footspeed per level of athletics isn't very high. I'd take a lot of points out of there and put it into riding and powerthrow. That would even keep your on your horse longer anyway because you could get on better horses, and you'd be better at riding them. Provided my suggestion that the wpf need be lowered, this build may even still be viable if you do that. The changes I suggested shouldn't hurt you at all really.

[Lorenzo_of_Iberia]

@ King Plazek

I have been a dedicated jav cav ever since i played crpg. I used to be able to pull off quite effective  18/18 build with 6 pt, 3ha and 6 riding as well as quite a bit of other useful skills like ps and wm. The only thing holding jav cav back atm is the slot system imo... javelins are barely stronger than arrows (obviously against armour the pierce is good), I used to play with a war spear and 12 javelins before slots. Then I went 1h and 9 javs with the slot patch, this generation I have had to abandon my build that I have always played because of the sheer uselessness of it due to 2 slot javelins. That is the only thing holding jav cav back atm, not the strength, not the wpf. You can get easily 130 throwing / 90 polearm, which is more than enough to throw with some accuracy off horse and also hold a candle against a competent swordsmen in close quarters. Considering you use a 2h as well off horse you could still get kills without any wpf. I know cause i've tried it

To improve throwing I would lower the strength of say jarids and throwing spears but keep those two at 2 slots, but with 4 ammo in. Javelins I would resurrect to one slot for 3 javs with a slight increase in accuracy, that would give a 1h 9 javs, a 2h 6 javs which is a fair amount. Also put wardarts up in ammo size, but nerf the damage a bit.

[AlbaTiger]

My recently retired Javalry, couldn't remember off the top of my head so had to use the Character Builder but should be pretty close.

(click to show/hide)

Level 30

    Strength: 18
    Agility: 18

    Skills to attributes: 2

    Power Strike: 5
    Athletics: 6
    Riding: 4
    Horse Archery: 2
    Power Throw: 6
    Weapon Master: 6

    Polearm: 70
    Throwing: 147

Looking back on it, it evolved into a mounted thrower from a foot one so there is room for improvement.

If I was going to stay at 6 Power Throw I would probably write off the power-strike and stick points into Riding and Horse Archery. Trying to stretch up to 7 Power Throw is a bit harder and 8+ is pretty much impossible.

With out doubt though the most crippling changes for my build were the accuracy, damage and ammo reductions.

Having just 8 Throwing Spears, or 6 Javelins/Jarids, when it takes 3+ hits to bring down a single horse usually is unplayable.

Even assuming you hit with every throw (very unlikely with the accuracy of throwing weapons) you can probably only kill 2 horses.

Utterly woeful compared to what any other weapon focus in the game can do.

[22nd_King_Plazek]

Yep, I started as a footman too hence the athletics. It can be pretty useful for a thrower anyway, enabling you to actually skirmish the way such light infantry really would. It is funny in light armour with 6 javelins with 6/7 infantry chasing all bunched up you while you do spinning jump throws and keep fleeing. Try doing that with a "dedicated" throwers athletics skill!

You gotta remember though I have no intention of retiring and grinding all the way back up here! I will have 5 power throw at level 35 or maybe a little sooner but that is quite a way away and I would be pretty miffed if I could not use my javelins until then! That could explain my over reaction 

[Thomek]

When stuff are rebalanced, you may have to retire to get the optimal build again Plazek. That goes for many of us. Also.. I do think speed influence the power of throwing weapons no? Isn't a Javelin thrown from a horse at full speed more damaging than walking backwards and throwing?

I have the feeling that running towards the enemy while throwing gives an extra punch to my snowflakes, but perhaps it's only my imagination.

Anyway, pure throwers and throwing cav are awfully cool "classes" and I want to see them in cRPG! It's somewhat self-nerfing classes for style, and I sympathize and support such people against the min-maxers out there.

Problem is that when something get's nerfed it hits the self-nerfers ( - good masochistic people, looking for a challenge such as us) the most. The ones that could barely get by with some extra skill and thought loose their only inch of advantage. That sucks. ;-)

So what one idealistically would like to do is to keep interesting classes viable, without buffing the min-maxers even more.

It annoys me that wpf doesn't influence throwing accuracy more, as that would be another tool for the purist classes. Throwing cav could save on PT since they get extra punch from speed, and add those points into HA or WPF. Pure throwers could choose more freely between accuracy and power.

I think this is all hardcoded according to cmpx.. BUT! what if you 1.5x throwing wpf behind the website, so the game sees 1.5x the wpf on the site? (For throwing only.. but the same tool could be used to rebalance all the wpf sections)

And Ninjas could finally make their high-agi headshotting snowflakes.. :-) Please make heirloomed throwing weapons gain accuracy!

[Native_ATS]

hmm maybe rise pt cost by all throwing by 2? that way not every one can throw.... but since it was nerffed to hard maybe rise the damg back to what it use to be?
maybe add one more ammo for all throwing?

[AlbaTiger]

Thomek I was with you up till that last point...shuriken are supposed to be distraction tools not killing tools, if anything they should do much less damage than a throwing knife. The exception of course probably being the shuriken that are just straight spikes of metal but those aren't even in the game.
 

Native_ATS that does seem like one thing that could easily be implemented however it would also have to be done alongside a reduction or removal of the wpf prerequisite for power throw.

It would also leave King_Plazek in a bad place though, which is a shame as I don't really want to see any thrower left behind while sorting out this mess, especially one who's build is far from min/maxed.
 

[EponiCo]

Accuracy is tied to how much pt you have over requirement. With 5 PT, darts have ok accuracy. So I think the lower requirements (last time I used throwing was when jarids where 6 PT and lances 7, I don't know the others) are also a buff for throwers.
I actually like that, because before it was exactly the other way round, high agi thrower was pointless, now it seems to be best to have a str focused but balanced build.
And yeah, speed doesn't give any damage, the warband physics seem kind of wonky, f.e. shooting sideways it seems that projectiles travel as if you shot them stationary, shooting forward they become faster but keep their damage. I've tested this with weightless axes in a vacuum and stuff (other fun fact ... you cannot kill yourself with your own axe, even if you outrun it).

[Cheap_Shot]

I might have to add damage buff to that list of mine  I hadn't realized how much the damage had been affected. I'm getting closer to where I was again but throwing a set of heirloomed spears, it takes about 3-4 to kill most people and I only get 8. It's very frustrating when I pull off amazing throws despite the horrid accuracy, and they can just laugh and walk towards me because it takes half my ammo to kill them. You don't understand how frustrating it is to put three-four heavy spears square into someone and then be killed by two arrows. High tier throwing weapons are supposed to be the shotguns of this game. They got way over nerfed in every respect. Every. The nerfs that hit throwers were out of control and I really wonder what the reasoning behind them was. I dont think anything else has ever been nerfed as hard.

Damage, Accuracy, speed, distance, slot number, stack size, wpf need, heirlooms, and all pretty savagely. Forgive me if I'm forgetting anything. I almost certainly am.

Edit: I modified #6 on my list.

[Templar_Ratigan]

The nerfs that hit throwers were out of control and I really wonder what the reasoning behind them was. I dont think anything else has ever been nerfed as hard.

So you managed to avoid the massive, atomic bomb sized whining then? Lucky bastard. 

My point has always been nerf the individual weapons that people have problems with, dont change an entire style of play.