Author Topic: Bows vs Throwing, A mathematical Approach!  (Read 4674 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Over

  • Noble
  • **
  • Renown: 20
  • Infamy: 18
  • cRPG Player
  • "We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad."
    • View Profile
  • Faction: None, Looking for one!
  • Game nicks: Over, Marrisae
Bows vs Throwing, A mathematical Approach!
« on: March 02, 2012, 04:30:25 am »
+3
Here I have mostly just copy pasted my notes, If people show intrest in these figures, ill Clarify a bit more

Bow done with 156 wpf, 6 PD
Darts with 7 PT, 150 wpf
Accuracy test!

5 Yards
10 arrow  All hit                 19 dps
10 war darts all hit              39 dps

10 yards
10 arrows all hit                 19 Dps
10 darts, 1 miss  90% accuracy    35.1 dps

20 yards
10 arrows, 1 miss 90% accuracy    17.1 DPS
10 darts, 5 miss  50% accuarcy    19.5 dps

50 yards
20 arrows, 7 miss  65% accuracy   12.35 DPS
20 darts 14 miss   30% accuracy   11.7 DPS



Rate of fire.
Longbow, 10 arrows per 30 seconds
19 DPS (14 modified by armor)
Wardarts, 24 in 26 seconds. (Round out to be 27 per 30)
39 DPS (26 modified by armor, Base values used for all calculations, these are just here for more info)



So, we can conclude, that If ammo is a non-issue, War darts are preferable (against a stationary target) up to about 40 yards where longbow starts to win in DPS due to accuaracy.

Gold efficency.
Wardart 42.5 pierce per dart
5.9 gold per Pierce damage!


longbowbows 57 per bodkin
19 gold per Pierce damage with 1 quiver
12 gold per Pierce with 2 quivers

On a Gold to damage basis, Wardarts a just over twice as good. Assuming perfect accuracy.

Total damage
Assuming all hits hit the enemy (In the torso)
30 bodkins will do... 1710 damage!
And 24 war darts will hit for... 1020 damage...

So, to find the point at which the wardarts have a higher total damage we... Do nothing. Longbow has a MUCH higher potential damage, and this gap gets bigger with more distance.

HOWEVER! We need to find the distance at which the wardarts cease to be more efficient for your gold!
I won't explain the math here, PM me if you are curious. But here are the results
the longbow is more efficient right around where it surpasses the darts in DPS, this time at 45 yards. (Compared to 40 before)
Now, for clarity, I will be have this picture here to show you my estimate of "50 Yards"
http://imgur.com/xmxv5
So, from a mathematical view, at ranges shorter than 35-50 yards, Throwers are SUPERIOR IN DPS. At longer distances, longbow wins. You also need to take in to account that if you are matching the longbows dps at this range, you will only be firing for about 25 seconds, whereas a bow goes for 1.5 minutes MINIMUM before it runs out of arrows. so even though it matches in dps at this range, due to higher rate of fire, you are in fact much worse off than the numbers suggest. if you really want to be all around better than a longbowman, you need to be throwing at ranges of less than 15 yards.

Basically, my conclusion is that Throwers are balanced, even though they are underplayed, and that to be a good thrower you should look like this
(You) X_________________________X(Enemy)
And that archers, to beat throwers in DPS and be generally more efficient you should look like this
(You)X____________________________________________________________________________X(Enemy)
Again, Ill clarify anything that need clarification, should you ask.
-Over (NINE THOUSAND!) :mrgreen:

Offline Over

  • Noble
  • **
  • Renown: 20
  • Infamy: 18
  • cRPG Player
  • "We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad."
    • View Profile
  • Faction: None, Looking for one!
  • Game nicks: Over, Marrisae
Re: Bows vs Throwing, A mathematical Approach!
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2012, 04:36:57 am »
+1
Sorry, bow way 159 WPF not 156, sorry!

Offline rhaaz

  • Peasant
  • *
  • Renown: 8
  • Infamy: 16
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
Re: Bows vs Throwing, A mathematical Approach!
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2012, 04:42:34 am »
+1
you be needin to get laid...

Offline isatis

  • Duke
  • *******
  • Renown: 624
  • Infamy: 78
  • cRPG Player
  • ink+water showing their true potential!
    • View Profile
    • le Clan des Cochons!
  • Faction: Le clan des Cochons!!
  • Game nicks: Cochon_Furtif_Isatis
  • IRC nick: Isatis
Re: Bows vs Throwing, A mathematical Approach!
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2012, 04:58:23 am »
0
mmmmath!

love those number...

now make another series of test with two pro of both discipline just to see...


but... I would love to see a final blow with value per gold...

and what about moving target?
because you got cool math and such only to tell us longbow is better at distance... which was common sense...

hum

still useful !


I need to make some test like that... but me i'll add some sin and cos so it will look more badass!

So the new response to ranged ragers is not "get a shield", it is "learn to chamber ranged nub!"
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Offline FRANK_THE_TANK

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1312
  • Infamy: 339
  • cRPG Player Sir White Knight
  • FluckCucker
    • View Profile
  • Faction: A Free and proud Peasant of Fisdnar!!!
  • Game nicks: FRANK_THE_TANK
  • IRC nick: Sippy sip
Re: Bows vs Throwing, A mathematical Approach!
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2012, 05:23:11 am »
0
I new it!

+3 War Darts are boss dog. Can't wait to see more heat from the +3s in strat.
Fammi un pompino!

I think I have ball cancer in my right nut :(
Good news everybody! It's not nut cancer :)
Bad news everybody, I got dumped :(

Offline MrShine

  • Ragdoll Basher
  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1156
  • Infamy: 193
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • Fear the stache
    • View Profile
  • Game nicks: MrShine
Re: Bows vs Throwing, A mathematical Approach!
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2012, 05:29:03 am »
0
interesting, looks like a lot of work was put into this!

...although I'm not sure what you hope the result of this thread will be, since your result (throwing is better than archery at close ranges) was already pretty much universally known.

It would be more useful information if players frequently go between throwing and archery so they would know when to switch from archer to thrower based on distance but...there are pretty much 0 good archery/throwing hybrid builds.   As an archer even if your DPS beats throwing from a great distance away you're still going to have increased damage being closer to targets since you'll miss less, so it doesn't really shed any light onto better practices.

Don't take that for discouragement though because it's a pretty interesting read, I just didn't come away from it with any new relevant information :)
Holy crap I have a youtube gaming channel! https://www.youtube.com/user/MrShine12345

Offline Lordark

  • Count
  • *****
  • Renown: 155
  • Infamy: 206
  • cRPG Player
  • Please respect all admins and thier decisions.
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Solo
  • Game nicks: Lordark
Re: Bows vs Throwing, A mathematical Approach!
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2012, 07:14:54 am »
-4
Summary of title?

Nerf throwing. Nuff said. :rolleyes:
Never forget the day Dragons came to Calradia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfLxHJY0lQI&feature=related
My personal theme song, We will never surrender!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg1xqAjQ5e4

Offline Digglez

  • Duke
  • *******
  • Renown: 573
  • Infamy: 596
  • cRPG Player
  • YOU INCOMPETENT TOH'PAH!
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Northmen
  • Game nicks: GotLander, Hamarr, Digglesan, Black_D34th
Re: Bows vs Throwing, A mathematical Approach!
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2012, 08:14:02 am »
0
as a thrower you are lucky if you break 33% accuracy overall

Offline ShinySpoons

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Renown: 143
  • Infamy: 16
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Faction: RS
  • Game nicks: AltOfSpoons
Re: Bows vs Throwing, A mathematical Approach!
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2012, 10:48:14 am »
0
Possible purpose of thread: Info for people looking into speccing in throwing/archery and what they can expect number wise. So its pretty useful considering where it is in the forum.

Offline Dravic

  • Knight
  • ***
  • Renown: 78
  • Infamy: 29
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Not playing
  • Game nicks: Not playing
  • IRC nick: Most likely Dravic
Re: Bows vs Throwing, A mathematical Approach!
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2012, 05:32:07 pm »
-1
Possible purpose of thread: Info for people looking into speccing in throwing/archery and what they can expect number wise. So its pretty useful considering where it is in the forum.

Sorry Shiny, but this OP guy is just wrong.

Throwing is not accuracy or personal player skill based. It is LUCK and RANDOM CHANCE OF HITTING based.

Even if you are the best player in the world, but the reticule is triple as big as your target and your missile is like fiftieth of your reticule...

You are not going to hit on demand.

Offline Tears of Destiny

  • Naive
  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1847
  • Infamy: 870
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • Quiet drifting through shallow waters. 死のび
    • View Profile
    • NADS
  • Faction: Black Company
  • IRC nick: Tears
Re: Bows vs Throwing, A mathematical Approach!
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2012, 06:13:30 pm »
0
Sorry Shiny, but this OP guy is just wrong.

Throwing is not accuracy or personal player skill based. It is LUCK and RANDOM CHANCE OF HITTING based.

Even if you are the best player in the world, but the reticule is triple as big as your target and your missile is like fiftieth of your reticule...

You are not going to hit on demand.

Why is your reticule that large when staying still as a thrower?
I'm not normal and I don't pretend so, my approach is pretty much a bomb crescendo.
Death is a fun way to pass the time though, several little bullets moving in staccato.
The terror of my reign will live on in infamy, singing when they die like a dead man's symphony.

Offline Dravic

  • Knight
  • ***
  • Renown: 78
  • Infamy: 29
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Not playing
  • Game nicks: Not playing
  • IRC nick: Most likely Dravic
Re: Bows vs Throwing, A mathematical Approach!
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2012, 06:19:40 pm »
0
Because I am not talking about point blank shots. I am talking about like 7-8 meters.

Try it with 150 wpf, you will see. I even tried to make some 180wpf thrower to check if it's really so retarded... didn't work, tho. Still BIG reticule.

Offline CrazyCracka420

  • Minute Valuable Contributor
  • Strategus Councillor
  • **
  • Renown: 1950
  • Infamy: 794
  • cRPG Player Sir White Pawn A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • Welp
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Vaegirs
  • Game nicks: Huseby
  • IRC nick: Steam name: crazycracka420
Re: Bows vs Throwing, A mathematical Approach!
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2012, 06:21:15 pm »
0
Well things like Javelins always throw in the same spot of your reticule ... so I call shenanigans.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 - Stolen from Macropussy

Offline Spawny

  • Count
  • *****
  • Renown: 152
  • Infamy: 27
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Game nicks: Templar_Spawny
Re: Bows vs Throwing, A mathematical Approach!
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2012, 07:58:55 pm »
0
 Tbh, throwingaccuracy is not defined by it's reticule. I myself and I believe many others who have done a few gens as a thrower only use the reticule to know where the center of the screen is or don't use it at all. Throwing is done intuitively and that's why throwers have to relearn their playstyle when missile speed is adjusted.
The size of the reticule inkt gives an indication of the random error in throwing.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


The problem is even if you are number 1 in NA you are still only number 467 in EU or the worst in AUS(number 17)

Offline Over

  • Noble
  • **
  • Renown: 20
  • Infamy: 18
  • cRPG Player
  • "We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad."
    • View Profile
  • Faction: None, Looking for one!
  • Game nicks: Over, Marrisae
Re: Bows vs Throwing, A mathematical Approach!
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2012, 08:47:19 pm »
0
I did this testing to find the trade off point. Yes, It is common sense that throwing is better up close, I just wanted to see HOW CLOSE you needed to be for it to be better.
The answer is, this close. http://imgur.com/wMsaW
Essentially, the perfect range for "Skirmishers" at this range you can expect to get off a dart or two, before the enemy closes on your position.

And
Sorry Shiny, but this OP guy is just wrong.

Throwing is not accuracy or personal player skill based. It is LUCK and RANDOM CHANCE OF HITTING based.

Even if you are the best player in the world, but the reticule is triple as big as your target and your missile is like fiftieth of your reticule...

You are not going to hit on demand.
Yes, There is LUCK and RANDOM CHANCE. But that's what I tested with accuracy. I threw them at a stationary target, and saw how many hit. It had nothing to do with a reticule or projectile size! Spawny has the right idea.